Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting


Edward Warnicke
 

Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.

Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.

Ed


Dave Wallace
 

Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members.  It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.

US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.

Have a great week!

-daw-



On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.

Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.

Ed





Ray Kinsella
 

Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.

Apologies for that!

 

Ray K

 

From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

 

Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members.  It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.

US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.

Have a great week!

-daw-


On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:

Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.

 

Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.

 

Ed



 
 
 

 


Ole Troan
 

I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.

(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))

O.

On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:

Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!

Ray K

From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.

US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.

Have a great week!

-daw-



On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.

Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.

Ed









Ray Kinsella
 

I also remember suggesting getting rid of timezones and the entire world aligning on GMT. 😊

If we aligned on 15:00 hours UTC? Perhaps we can vote on it next week.

Ray K

-----Original Message-----
From: otroan@... <otroan@...>
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 16:24
To: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>
Cc: Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said
two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from
UTC. Not some local time zone.

(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))

O.

On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...>
wrote:

Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!

Ray K

From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended
by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this
week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not
having a quorum.

US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the
time zone difference will not be a issue.

Have a great week!

-daw-



On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC
Meeting tomorrow.

Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.

Ed









Maciek Konstantynowicz (mkonstan)
 

Ray, do you mean GMT [1] or UTC [2], they are different [3]. 

And yes, I know, the world of time is confusing, so no surprise we get confused to :)

Cheers,

On 4 Nov 2021, at 16:33, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:


I also remember suggesting getting rid of timezones and the entire world aligning on GMT. 😊

If we aligned on 15:00 hours UTC? Perhaps we can vote on it next week.

Ray K

-----Original Message-----
From: otroan@... <otroan@...>
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 16:24
To: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>
Cc: Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said
two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from
UTC. Not some local time zone.

(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))

O.

On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...>
wrote:

Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!

Ray K

From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended
by US based TSC members.  It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this
week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not
having a quorum.

US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the
time zone difference will not be a issue.

Have a great week!

-daw-



On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC
Meeting tomorrow.

Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.

Ed













Edward Warnicke
 

Ole,

Offset from UTC is not a timezone... it's an identifier of a point in time.  It's intrinsically a *choice* of timezone, no better or worse than any other.

Ed, who has had the grave misfortune of having to exercise the distinction between timezones and offsets in code in anger

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 11:23 AM Ole Troan <otroan@...> wrote:
I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.

(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))

O.

> On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
>
> Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
> Apologies for that!
>
> Ray K
>
> From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
> Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
> To: tsc@...
> Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
>
> Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members.  It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
>
> US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
>
> Have a great week!
>
> -daw-
>
>
>
> On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
>
> Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Ray Kinsella
 

Thanks Ed,

 

Given your prior experience then.

Can you suggest then, an alternative that might work better?

 

Ray K

 

From: Ed Warnicke <hagbard@...>
Sent: Wednesday 10 November 2021 15:32
To: Ole Troan <otroan@...>
Cc: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>; Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

 

Ole,

 

Offset from UTC is not a timezone... it's an identifier of a point in time.  It's intrinsically a *choice* of timezone, no better or worse than any other.

 

Ed, who has had the grave misfortune of having to exercise the distinction between timezones and offsets in code in anger

 

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 11:23 AM Ole Troan <otroan@...> wrote:

I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.

(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))

O.

> On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
>
> Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
> Apologies for that!
>
> Ray K
>
> From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
> Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
> To: tsc@...
> Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
>
> Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members.  It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
>
> US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
>
> Have a great week!
>
> -daw-
>
>
>
> On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
>
> Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Edward Warnicke
 

Ray,

LOL... I'm OK with us making a choice of timezone to offset into.  It just gets my hackles up when folks somehow pretend UTC+offsets are some universal answer to the problem: they aren't.

UTC+offsets is *not* a timezone... ISO 8601 is for identifying *points* in time, not timezones.  If we want to set our meetings in the UTC timezone, that's fine, but pretending it's anything but a choice of timezones and is somehow magically universal has been a point of ongoing annoyance for me :)

All of that said, given that the weight of the TSC is in EU, I'm fine picking an EU oriented timezone to anchor the meeting in, like CEST... or even UTC :)

Ed

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:33 AM Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:

Thanks Ed,

 

Given your prior experience then.

Can you suggest then, an alternative that might work better?

 

Ray K

 

From: Ed Warnicke <hagbard@...>
Sent: Wednesday 10 November 2021 15:32
To: Ole Troan <otroan@...>
Cc: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>; Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

 

Ole,

 

Offset from UTC is not a timezone... it's an identifier of a point in time.  It's intrinsically a *choice* of timezone, no better or worse than any other.

 

Ed, who has had the grave misfortune of having to exercise the distinction between timezones and offsets in code in anger

 

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 11:23 AM Ole Troan <otroan@...> wrote:

I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.

(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))

O.

> On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
>
> Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
> Apologies for that!
>
> Ray K
>
> From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
> Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
> To: tsc@...
> Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
>
> Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members.  It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
>
> US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
>
> Have a great week!
>
> -daw-
>
>
>
> On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
>
> Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Ole Troan
 

Ed,

LOL... I'm OK with us making a choice of timezone to offset into. It just gets my hackles up when folks somehow pretend UTC+offsets are some universal answer to the problem: they aren't.

UTC+offsets is *not* a timezone... ISO 8601 is for identifying *points* in time, not timezones. If we want to set our meetings in the UTC timezone, that's fine, but pretending it's anything but a choice of timezones and is somehow magically universal has been a point of ongoing annoyance for me :)

All of that said, given that the weight of the TSC is in EU, I'm fine picking an EU oriented timezone to anchor the meeting in, like CEST... or even UTC :)
I think it is a misunderstanding that you need a time zone.
You need a fixed reference point in time for when the meeting should happen.
E.g. 1500UTC.

Then it's up to local participants to figure out what they have their watches set to in relation to this.

O.


Joel Halpern
 

It seems to me that we should define it in either CET or US Pacific and be done with it. We have done it in US Pacific. If folks want to change it to CET, so be it. Changing it to a time in UTC would mean that it would be at different times in two halves the year for everyone. Why would that be good? (Offset is as far as I can tell irrelevant if you define it as starting at a specific time UTC. Unless you declare the offset to vary by time of year. At which point it is easier to use some other time zone.)

Yours,
Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Ole Troan via lists.fd.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 12:08 PM
To: Ed Warnicke <hagbard@...>
Cc: Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...>; Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting

Ed,

LOL... I'm OK with us making a choice of timezone to offset into. It just gets my hackles up when folks somehow pretend UTC+offsets are some universal answer to the problem: they aren't.

UTC+offsets is *not* a timezone... ISO 8601 is for identifying *points* in time, not timezones. If we want to set our meetings in the UTC timezone, that's fine, but pretending it's anything but a choice of timezones and is somehow magically universal has been a point of ongoing annoyance for me :)

All of that said, given that the weight of the TSC is in EU, I'm fine picking an EU oriented timezone to anchor the meeting in, like CEST... or even UTC :)
I think it is a misunderstanding that you need a time zone.
You need a fixed reference point in time for when the meeting should happen.
E.g. 1500UTC.

Then it's up to local participants to figure out what they have their watches set to in relation to this.

O.


Ole Troan
 

It seems to me that we should define it in either CET or US Pacific and be done with it. We have done it in US Pacific. If folks want to change it to CET, so be it. Changing it to a time in UTC would mean that it would be at different times in two halves the year for everyone. Why would that be good? (Offset is as far as I can tell irrelevant if you define it as starting at a specific time UTC. Unless you declare the offset to vary by time of year. At which point it is easier to use some other time zone.)
The point of defining the meeting at a fixed time is to avoid the summer time issues. Largely caused by the US and Europe swapping at different times mind you. Look at this as a preemptive strike since summer time is likely to be deprecated anyway.

O.


Edward Warnicke
 

Ole,

I don't see how this actually changes anything about the daylight savings time issues... it just moves those issues around.

If you enter your meeting in your calendar in PST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues

If you enter your meeting in your calendar in CEST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues

If you enter your meeting in your calendar as an offset from a timezone (any timezone) to your local timezone at the time you add the meeting - it doesn't move, issues.

The root issue is timezone+offset scheduling, which is made no better or worse by choice of timezone (PST, CEST, UTC).
(or if you prefer, the fact that all of our calendars take their times in Timezones, not Offsets - note: I checked this in both Google Calendar and Outlook, while they *display* todays offset along side their Timezone... they are *respecting* the Timezone, not the offset).

I can completely buy a desire to move the meeting time to an EU timezone if folks would like to... but pretending that actually solves our problems... well... it doesn't.

Ed

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 3:13 AM <otroan@...> wrote:
> It seems to me that we should define it in either CET or US Pacific and be done with it.  We have done it in US Pacific.  If folks want to change it to CET, so be it.  Changing it to a time in UTC would mean that it would be at different times in two halves the year for everyone.  Why would that be good?   (Offset is as far as I can tell irrelevant if you define it as starting at a specific time UTC.  Unless you declare the offset to vary by time of year.  At which point it is easier  to use some other time zone.)

The point of defining the meeting at a fixed time is to avoid the summer time issues. Largely caused by the US and Europe swapping at different times mind you. Look at this as a preemptive strike since summer time is likely to be deprecated anyway.

O.


Matthew Smith
 


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:00 AM Edward Warnicke <hagbard@...> wrote:
Ole,

I don't see how this actually changes anything about the daylight savings time issues... it just moves those issues around.

If you enter your meeting in your calendar in PST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues

If you enter your meeting in your calendar in CEST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues

If you enter your meeting in your calendar as an offset from a timezone (any timezone) to your local timezone at the time you add the meeting - it doesn't move, issues.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is exactly what I did. I looked at the TSC wiki page, saw that the meeting time was 8:00 Pacific Time, converted that to my local time and added an appointment on my calendar at the converted local time. Then my calendar faithfully (,foolishly) believed that I knew what I was talking about when I created the appointment :)

Maybe it would solve some problems if we had an ICS file which contains data on the TSC meeting on the wiki page that people could download in order to add the appointment to their calendars. Then an appointment would be added to calendars associated with the chosen time zone and calendar software could correctly convert it for us to our local time zones. 

And/or we could spell things out in great detail with regards to DST like the CSIT page does about the CSIT weekly meeting.

-Matt




Maciek Konstantynowicz (mkonstan)
 

+1

On 11 Nov 2021, at 14:48, Matthew Smith via lists.fd.io <mgsmith=netgate.com@...> wrote:


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:00 AM Edward Warnicke <hagbard@...> wrote:
Ole,

I don't see how this actually changes anything about the daylight savings time issues... it just moves those issues around.

If you enter your meeting in your calendar in PST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues

If you enter your meeting in your calendar in CEST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues

If you enter your meeting in your calendar as an offset from a timezone (any timezone) to your local timezone at the time you add the meeting - it doesn't move, issues.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is exactly what I did. I looked at the TSC wiki page, saw that the meeting time was 8:00 Pacific Time, converted that to my local time and added an appointment on my calendar at the converted local time. Then my calendar faithfully (,foolishly) believed that I knew what I was talking about when I created the appointment :)

Maybe it would solve some problems if we had an ICS file which contains data on the TSC meeting on the wiki page that people could download in order to add the appointment to their calendars. Then an appointment would be added to calendars associated with the chosen time zone and calendar software could correctly convert it for us to our local time zones. 

And/or we could spell things out in great detail with regards to DST like the CSIT page does about the CSIT weekly meeting.

-Matt