Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
Have a great week!
-daw-
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
Ed
Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!
Ray K
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent
agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
Have a great week!
-daw-
On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
Ed
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.
(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))
O.
On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!
Ray K
From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
Have a great week!
-daw-
On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
Ed
If we aligned on 15:00 hours UTC? Perhaps we can vote on it next week.
Ray K
-----Original Message-----
From: otroan@... <otroan@...>
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 16:24
To: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>
Cc: Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said
two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from
UTC. Not some local time zone.
(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))
O.On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...>wrote:by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this
Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!
Ray K
From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended
week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not
having a quorum.time zone difference will not be a issue.
US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week theMeeting tomorrow.
Have a great week!
-daw-
On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC
Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
Ed
On 4 Nov 2021, at 16:33, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
I also remember suggesting getting rid of timezones and the entire world aligning on GMT. 😊
If we aligned on 15:00 hours UTC? Perhaps we can vote on it next week.
Ray K
-----Original Message-----
From: otroan@... <otroan@...>
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 16:24
To: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>
Cc: Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said
two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from
UTC. Not some local time zone.
(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))
O.
On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...>wrote:
by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this
Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
Apologies for that!
Ray K
From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
To: tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended
week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not
having a quorum.
time zone difference will not be a issue.
US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the
Meeting tomorrow.
Have a great week!
-daw-
On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC
Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
Ed
I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.
(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))
O.
> On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
>
> Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
> Apologies for that!
>
> Ray K
>
> From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
> Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
> To: tsc@...
> Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
>
> Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
>
> US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
>
> Have a great week!
>
> -daw-
>
>
>
> On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
>
> Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks Ed,
Given your prior experience then.
Can you suggest then, an alternative that might work better?
Ray K
Sent: Wednesday 10 November 2021 15:32
To: Ole Troan <otroan@...>
Cc: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>; Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Ole,
Offset from UTC is not a timezone... it's an identifier of a point in time. It's intrinsically a *choice* of timezone, no better or worse than any other.
Ed, who has had the grave misfortune of having to exercise the distinction between timezones and offsets in code in anger
On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 11:23 AM Ole Troan <otroan@...> wrote:
I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.
(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))
O.
> On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
>
> Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
> Apologies for that!
>
> Ray K
>
> From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
> Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
> To: tsc@...
> Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
>
> Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
>
> US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
>
> Have a great week!
>
> -daw-
>
>
>
> On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
>
> Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks Ed,
Given your prior experience then.
Can you suggest then, an alternative that might work better?
Ray K
From: Ed Warnicke <hagbard@...>
Sent: Wednesday 10 November 2021 15:32
To: Ole Troan <otroan@...>
Cc: Kinsella, Ray <ray.kinsella@...>; Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Ole,
Offset from UTC is not a timezone... it's an identifier of a point in time. It's intrinsically a *choice* of timezone, no better or worse than any other.
Ed, who has had the grave misfortune of having to exercise the distinction between timezones and offsets in code in anger
On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 11:23 AM Ole Troan <otroan@...> wrote:
I'll repeat what I said last year when this happened, and what I said two years ago when this happened.
Meetings with an international crowd should be set as an offset from UTC. Not some local time zone.
(and Ray you agreed me last year too. ;-))
O.
> On 4 Nov 2021, at 17:09, Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...> wrote:
>
> Yes – Maciek, Neale, Vratko and I showed up 1 hour late.
> Apologies for that!
>
> Ray K
>
> From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Dave Wallace
> Sent: Thursday 4 November 2021 15:28
> To: tsc@...
> Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
>
> Given the DST change in Europe, today’s call was primarily attended by US based TSC members. It was agreed by at the meeting to skip this week given a lack of urgent agenda items in conjunction with not having a quorum.
>
> US DST ends this Saturday 11/6/2021 at midnight, so next week the time zone difference will not be a issue.
>
> Have a great week!
>
> -daw-
>
>
>
> On 11/3/21 12:59 PM, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> Dave Wallace has kindly agreed to be my proxy for the FD.io TSC Meeting tomorrow.
>
> Ray Kinsella has kindly agreed to chair.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
LOL... I'm OK with us making a choice of timezone to offset into. It just gets my hackles up when folks somehow pretend UTC+offsets are some universal answer to the problem: they aren't.I think it is a misunderstanding that you need a time zone.
UTC+offsets is *not* a timezone... ISO 8601 is for identifying *points* in time, not timezones. If we want to set our meetings in the UTC timezone, that's fine, but pretending it's anything but a choice of timezones and is somehow magically universal has been a point of ongoing annoyance for me :)
All of that said, given that the weight of the TSC is in EU, I'm fine picking an EU oriented timezone to anchor the meeting in, like CEST... or even UTC :)
You need a fixed reference point in time for when the meeting should happen.
E.g. 1500UTC.
Then it's up to local participants to figure out what they have their watches set to in relation to this.
O.
Yours,
Joel
From: tsc@... <tsc@...> On Behalf Of Ole Troan via lists.fd.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 12:08 PM
To: Ed Warnicke <hagbard@...>
Cc: Ray Kinsella <ray.kinsella@...>; Dave Wallace <dwallacelf@...>; tsc@...
Subject: Re: [tsc] Dave Wallace to be my proxy at FD.io TSC Meeting
Ed,
LOL... I'm OK with us making a choice of timezone to offset into. It just gets my hackles up when folks somehow pretend UTC+offsets are some universal answer to the problem: they aren't.I think it is a misunderstanding that you need a time zone.
UTC+offsets is *not* a timezone... ISO 8601 is for identifying *points* in time, not timezones. If we want to set our meetings in the UTC timezone, that's fine, but pretending it's anything but a choice of timezones and is somehow magically universal has been a point of ongoing annoyance for me :)
All of that said, given that the weight of the TSC is in EU, I'm fine picking an EU oriented timezone to anchor the meeting in, like CEST... or even UTC :)
You need a fixed reference point in time for when the meeting should happen.
E.g. 1500UTC.
Then it's up to local participants to figure out what they have their watches set to in relation to this.
O.
It seems to me that we should define it in either CET or US Pacific and be done with it. We have done it in US Pacific. If folks want to change it to CET, so be it. Changing it to a time in UTC would mean that it would be at different times in two halves the year for everyone. Why would that be good? (Offset is as far as I can tell irrelevant if you define it as starting at a specific time UTC. Unless you declare the offset to vary by time of year. At which point it is easier to use some other time zone.)The point of defining the meeting at a fixed time is to avoid the summer time issues. Largely caused by the US and Europe swapping at different times mind you. Look at this as a preemptive strike since summer time is likely to be deprecated anyway.
O.
> It seems to me that we should define it in either CET or US Pacific and be done with it. We have done it in US Pacific. If folks want to change it to CET, so be it. Changing it to a time in UTC would mean that it would be at different times in two halves the year for everyone. Why would that be good? (Offset is as far as I can tell irrelevant if you define it as starting at a specific time UTC. Unless you declare the offset to vary by time of year. At which point it is easier to use some other time zone.)
The point of defining the meeting at a fixed time is to avoid the summer time issues. Largely caused by the US and Europe swapping at different times mind you. Look at this as a preemptive strike since summer time is likely to be deprecated anyway.
O.
Ole,I don't see how this actually changes anything about the daylight savings time issues... it just moves those issues around.If you enter your meeting in your calendar in PST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issuesIf you enter your meeting in your calendar in CEST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issuesIf you enter your meeting in your calendar as an offset from a timezone (any timezone) to your local timezone at the time you add the meeting - it doesn't move, issues.
On 11 Nov 2021, at 14:48, Matthew Smith via lists.fd.io <mgsmith=netgate.com@...> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:00 AM Edward Warnicke <hagbard@...> wrote:
Ole,
I don't see how this actually changes anything about the daylight savings time issues... it just moves those issues around.
If you enter your meeting in your calendar in PST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues
If you enter your meeting in your calendar in CEST (the timezone) it moves automatically - no issues
If you enter your meeting in your calendar as an offset from a timezone (any timezone) to your local timezone at the time you add the meeting - it doesn't move, issues.
I can't speak for anyone else, but this is exactly what I did. I looked at the TSC wiki page, saw that the meeting time was 8:00 Pacific Time, converted that to my local time and added an appointment on my calendar at the converted local time. Then my calendar faithfully (,foolishly) believed that I knew what I was talking about when I created the appointment :)
Maybe it would solve some problems if we had an ICS file which contains data on the TSC meeting on the wiki page that people could download in order to add the appointment to their calendars. Then an appointment would be added to calendars associated with the chosen time zone and calendar software could correctly convert it for us to our local time zones.
And/or we could spell things out in great detail with regards to DST like the CSIT page does about the CSIT weekly meeting.
-Matt